To Carry one the chamber or not?

[Landy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syxrpLbaEuY&feature=player_embedded

 

[John Canuck]

That's great. She claims to have been able to get two shots off after being stabbed in the back (probably painful enough to cause you to lose focus on your defense). Try racking a round if the first knife strike is to your support hand wrist. While it is possible to do single handed, it's not easy while in a knife fight.

IMHO, it's much more effective to carry the tool ready to use and train properly.

 

[Avtomat-Acolyte]

The female in the video would benefit from taking basic unarmed self-defense classes so that she can use her weak hand/arm to defend and block herself while her strong hand draws the firearm. She left herself open each time to repeated thrust knife-attacks into her abdomen. There are no vital organs in your left arm. There are plenty in your abdomen.

As for the people that think carrying a gun without a round chambered.... any gun is always better than no gun.

A gun locked in your glovebox in the parking lot of where you work or eat is better than a gun in your closet back home.
A gun on your hip with no round chambered is better than a gun locked in your glovebox.
A gun on your hip with a round chambered is better than a gun without a round chambered.

The problem arises with the types of people that are likely to be too scared to carry a loaded gun and prefer to carry an unloaded gun and "load it when necessary." These types of people are generally completely untrained and won't have the competency to judge when "it is necessary" and may, in fact, have their weapon taken from them, loaded by their attacker, and used on them or someone else.

If you are shaking and so scared that you get tunnel vision and are desperately trying to rack the slide on that Kahr CW9 that you've never trained on then you're probably going to have it taken from you.

Shooting one or two magazines out of a gun doesn't mean you're competent. It just means you're better prepared than the average person that doesn't carry a gun.

Carrying a gun doesn't mean you can defend yourself. It just means you're better prepared than the average person. This doesn't mean you can ignore other aspects of self-preservation, i.e. avoiding conflict, learning unarmed combat, and practicing unholstering and dry-firing THOUSANDS of times with the gun(s) you plan on relying on.

 

[Avtomat-Acolyte]

I just realized I typed a lot of disjointed things. I saw the video and was annoyed at the lack of proficiency of the demonstrator. It does wonderfully illustrate that carrying a handgun in an unloaded state is not a very good idea for undertrained personnel.

 

[Landy]

I just realized I typed a lot of disjointed things. I saw the video and was annoyed at the lack of proficiency of the demonstrator. It does wonderfully illustrate that carrying a handgun in an unloaded state is not a very good idea for undertrained personnel.

That was my biggest point. Thanks for bringing it up..
Although I have seen better vids on this this just shows it in a very basic way. As for the woman using her weak arm to block the knife. Thats just it most people will not take the time to learn what they should. That or in todays busy lifestyle they just keep putting it off... Landy

 

[Frost]

Not having one in the chamber is like carrying a knife that is dull.

 

[Bob Ouellette]

Not having one in the chamber is like carrying a knife that is dull.

It takes more effort to put a hole in the other person? :lol:

I always carry one in the chamber. My current carry pistol is DAO so I've got no worries about it going off when it shouldn't. My other pistol has a firing pin block, thumb safety, and grip safety, so I'm not worried about it either.

 

[PCShogun]

Wow, I guess I still lack confidence in myself and my firearm but I always subscribed to the law that the best safety is the one between your ears. I do shoot regularly.

I do not carry with one in the chamber, in fact, I do not carry on my person as so many places seem to deny entry to armed citizens. I will carry one in the center console or glove box on occasion, especially during the holidays. My carry gun is a CZ-82 and it has no decocker. I have had cell phones knocked off my hips, crushed, and broken just trying to move through crowded buildings. I do not need my safety to get dinged into the fire position in a crowded area nor shoot my dingus while drawing and having the trigger hang on something. Just my worries, not yours.

I realize the more prepared you are, the faster you can respond. I have drawn, racked, and fired, in about 1.5 seconds. I hope to never need to do that for real.

 

[John Canuck]

Wow, I guess I still lack confidence in myself and my firearm but I always subscribed to the law that the best safety is the one between your ears. I do shoot regularly.

I do not carry with one in the chamber, in fact, I do not carry on my person as so many places seem to deny entry to armed citizens. I will carry one in the center console or glove box on occasion, especially during the holidays. My carry gun is a CZ-82 and it has no decocker. I have had cell phones knocked off my hips, crushed, and broken just trying to move through crowded buildings. I do not need my safety to get dinged into the fire position in a crowded area nor shoot my dingus while drawing and having the trigger hang on something. Just my worries, not yours.

I realize the more prepared you are, the faster you can respond. I have drawn, racked, and fired, in about 1.5 seconds. I hope to never need to do that for real.

I think folks should carry however they are comfortable. I'm with you on hoping to never need to do anything I practice for self defense. Two questions as discussion points, not trying to be argumentative.

Can you do it in 1.5 seconds with only one hand?

Do you know how far an attacker can travel in 1.5 seconds?

 

[mcdaniel]

I think if you can't carry with one in the chamber, then you should not be carrying.

A gun without one in the pipe is too easily taken by an attacker, and then it can be used on the victim.

Just my opinion, but I cannot imagine why you would do this when a proper carry pistol is perfectly safe loaded. A search of youtube videos about "israeli Carry" will yield a lot of couch commandos that greatly overstate their skill. One of the fat turds is actually pretty funny to watch jiggle around in his field.

Step 1: Get a good Gun
Step 2: Get a great holster

 

[PCShogun]

I think folks should carry however they are comfortable. I'm with you on hoping to never need to do anything I practice for self defense. Two questions as discussion points, not trying to be argumentative.

Can you do it in 1.5 seconds with only one hand?

Do you know how far an attacker can travel in 1.5 seconds?

No, and No. Your second question is an interesting one as that would tell me how long I have to react and at what distance. Perhaps with my feelings being what they are, I should carry a revolver rather than a semi-auto. The CZ fits my large hand very well though, and I feel very comfortable shooting it. My nervousness is primarily the possibility of an accidental discharge when lowering the hammer manually(IE: Slipped off my thumb)

 

[John Canuck]

I think folks should carry however they are comfortable. I'm with you on hoping to never need to do anything I practice for self defense. Two questions as discussion points, not trying to be argumentative.

Can you do it in 1.5 seconds with only one hand?

Do you know how far an attacker can travel in 1.5 seconds?

No, and No. Your second question is an interesting one as that would tell me how long I have to react and at what distance. Perhaps with my feelings being what they are, I should carry a revolver rather than a semi-auto. The CZ fits my large hand very well though, and I feel very comfortable shooting it. My nervousness is primarily the possibility of an accidental discharge when lowering the hammer manually(IE: Slipped off my thumb)

Well, in the case where you are engaged in an activity that occupies your support hand, like protecting a loved one, or fending off an attacker, the ability to draw, rack and fire one handed is a pretty good one to have. This is the primary reason I carry a loaded gun.

Sometime in the early 80's, a state trooper (from Utah I think) named Teuller did some testing to determine how far an attacker with a knife could travel in 1.5 seconds. After a number of tests, he concluded that an average man could travel 20 feet in that time. He picked 1.5 seconds as about the fastest time one could react, draw and fire an accurate shot. There was no time allowed to rack the gun. His testing resulted in a pretty common firearm training exercise called the Teuller Drill. If you take too long on the reaction part and get stabbed, the one handed thing above might be all that keeps you alive if your gun isn't already charged.

Those are some thoughts I have anyway.

 

[C_Carson]

PCShogun, I can understand where you are coming from. It took me a long time to get to the point where I was carrying with one in the chamber, especially with it being a Glock. My biggest fear was that I would forget it was in condition zero and someone would ask to see it/handle it.

You have to do what you are comfortable with, but you can also practice in small increments. Carry with one in the pipe for an hour. Go two hours the next day. Baby steps. That's what I did, and it became like a second state of awareness.

Another thing that will help is getting a holster with a covered, non-pliable (like leather or nylon) trigger guard. I don't know what you're using, but Blackhawk serpas and Crossbreeds are comfortable and practical, especially for this purpose.

 

[Tigerstripe]

my quote.

an empty gun is a rock.

 

[mcdaniel]

I think folks should carry however they are comfortable. I'm with you on hoping to never need to do anything I practice for self defense. Two questions as discussion points, not trying to be argumentative.

Can you do it in 1.5 seconds with only one hand?

Do you know how far an attacker can travel in 1.5 seconds?

No, and No. Your second question is an interesting one as that would tell me how long I have to react and at what distance. Perhaps with my feelings being what they are, I should carry a revolver rather than a semi-auto. The CZ fits my large hand very well though, and I feel very comfortable shooting it. My nervousness is primarily the possibility of an accidental discharge when lowering the hammer manually(IE: Slipped off my thumb)

From this response, I would say that you have the wrong carry gun for you. If you intend to carry I would look at a DAO revolver or Semi where this is not a concern. After that, buy a really nice carry holster that fits your preferred method of carry and call it good.

FWIW, it took me a long time to find my favorite rig, a glock 19 or 26 in a CompTac MTAC that I trimmed the bottom of the leather on. I went though multiple other Waist Carry, both IWB and OWB before I got to that, and I found a winner for me.

 

[thebrasilian]

PCShogun, I can understand where you are coming from. It took me a long time to get to the point where I was carrying with one in the chamber, especially with it being a Glock. My biggest fear was that I would forget it was in condition zero and someone would ask to see it/handle it.

You have to do what you are comfortable with, but you can also practice in small increments. Carry with one in the pipe for an hour. Go two hours the next day. Baby steps. That's what I did, and it became like a second state of awareness.

Another thing that will help is getting a holster with a covered, non-pliable (like leather or nylon) trigger guard. I don't know what you're using, but Blackhawk serpas and Crossbreeds are comfortable and practical, especially for this purpose.

I made it a habit to alway slide lock and remove the mag before handing a weapon to someone weather I know it's loaded or not. 3 things happen. First, I'm not giving a loaded weapon to someone who could use it on me and second, if the person is not knowledgeable or comfortable with guns they will have more comfort seeing it cleared in front of them. Third, it's a habit and I now know that the weapon is loaded or not.

 

[armaborealis]

I fall squarely in the "one in the chamber" camp now. All the stats I've ever seen indicate that many civilian defensive gun usages occur in low light, close range, and involve multiple assailants. As has been mentioned, if a bad guy is within about 7 yards of you, you have just enough time to draw and get the first shot (not necessarily a controlled pair) into him once you react. That's a time that also requires some training and practice.

If you need to chamber a round then the draw stroke is going to be substantially slower -- even if you know you need to do it and instinctively rack the slide it's going to add a half second or more. If you point in, press the trigger, and get a click (surprisingly, a louder noise than a "bang!" in a fight...), assess what is happening, tap/rack/press to fix the self-induced type-1 malfunction, it is going to probably double that 1.5 second best-case reaction time. Against multiple assailants in low light conditions at close range, three potatoes is a long time.

However, I can sympathize with those who are uncomfortable as it took me awhile to get to carrying with a loaded chamber all the time. The biggest issue I faced for awhile was having to frequently travel inside a victim disarmament zone (aka gun free zone). Firearms were allowed but had to be unloaded in a cased container. In this scenario I often opted to carry in condition 3 (no round in the chamber) because I had to clear the firearm inside the car and secure it, discreetly, in bulky winter clothing (I wasn't in the southeast). It was a lot easier to just eject the mag and press check to ensure the firearm was empty than to have to also eject a chambered round (which would inevitably fall below the floormats and be lost forever). I felt that the risk of a negligent discharge while handling a condition 1 firearm in the car in cramped quarters was too high and opted for no round in the chamber to simplify clearing.

Before that, when I was an extremely new shooter and lacked sufficient training, I was also uncomfortable a round in the chamber. That was simply rectified with training.

Brasilian -- I simply don't remove my sidearm from the holster unless I need to or unless I have a safe backstop and plan on clearing and securing it. I've had friends ask to see my sidearm out of curiosity and I just politely decline or defer until we're in an appropriate place with a safe backstop (like the range). I figure there is a zero percent chance of a negligent discharge if the handgun stays in the holster. As soon as it comes out the probability of a ND becomes something higher than zero, even for someone with firearms handling training. Why take the chance?

PCShogun -- Proper equipment helps a ton. I have a CZ as well. It is a fun range gun. Its a marginal to barely adequate combat handgun, in my opinion. I don't like carrying it in condition 0 (round chambered, hammer cocked, no manual safety) with the light double action trigger. I am also really concerned about the lack of a decocker and do not like manually decocking that firearm. The only time I personally manually decock a loaded firearm is with a safe backstop (like at the range, or at home against a backstop I know is safe). Don't get me wrong, I like my CZ, but it is not really a substitute for a proper combat handgun like a quality DA revolver, a modern polymer handgun (glock, M&P, etc), or a 1911. I know CZs are cheap, but for around the same price you can also get old Ruger Security Six revolvers and used police glock trade-ins. Just my opinion, but I think for a carry guy it is important to be confident in your rig.

I'd also agree that a proper holster (that properly covers the trigger guard!) is key for safely and confidently carrying in condition 1.

Now the only time I keep some firearms in condition 3 is when stored for "near immediate" action in the house not on my person (say, in the nightstand). I figure I have more time to react in the house. I also figure that if I am not awake enough to rack the slide, I am not awake enough to positively identify my target and what is behind it. Finally, in a house fire, ammo cooking off is pretty harmless if it is loose, in a box, or in a mag. If a round is chambered, however, and it cooks off, then it is going to send that bullet down the barrel and who knows where it will go?

 

[Dirk Pitt]

I've been known to carry with the weapon in condition 3 if I'm carrying Mexican carry, you know those situations were you investigate something strange going on and you throw that pistol in your pants but than again that's probably when you want a round in the chamber. If I have a holster handy round in the chamber every time.

 

[Schultz]

When carrying (I usually carry a 1911) Condition one "cocked and locked" is always used. It's usually Condition 2 if I'm checking something out similar to what Dirk speaks of.

 

[C_Carson]

Unless I am cleaning it or letting someone inspect it, my gun is always loaded now. I just don't want to be in a situation where I need it, and forgot it wasn't ready to go.