Sticky about Shipping and FTF Transfers

SuperChuck

New Member
Joined
May 14, 2011
Messages
192
I agree, but I am not an FFL (Licensee), I am an "unlicensed" individual... the underlined section specifically states a "licensee's premises" which would be the FFL's address.

Therefore, I would have to sell through/via a local FFL (Licensee) if the person was willing to drive into SC to pick it up. I.E. NC or GA.

For any out of state sale, in my scenario, it would appear a licensee is required.. even for long guns.

I think its easier to do Differential Equations in my head than figure out the GCA...LOL thanks for th efeedback!


SC
 

ColumbiaArms

New Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2012
Messages
5
John Canuck said:
In Virginia, the law for a FTF is that you must not have knowledge that the person you are selling to is prohibited. Is there any similar requirement in SC?
Yes, that is pretty much the law anywhere. However, there is no way for the "average Joe" to verify such a thing of a total stranger. It's mainly there to give the police something else to charge criminals with when they sell guns to each other (known felons).
 

RyanEOD

New Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
67
Random question about a FTF. My co-worker wants to sell his Glock that he bought at a dealer, if he sells it to me, how does he transfer that gun to me in the database? I assume when the dealer calls your info into the state or federal people that he is letting them know that you are buying that gun. Is that the fact? If so how do you switch it to someone else?
 
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
607
RyanEOD said:
Random question about a FTF. My co-worker wants to sell his Glock that he bought at a dealer, if he sells it to me, how does he transfer that gun to me in the database? I assume when the dealer calls your info into the state or federal people that he is letting them know that you are buying that gun. Is that the fact? If so how do you switch it to someone else?
No this is not the fact------There is no data base! It is a federal violation for the Goveernment to maintain records of firearm purchases. The ATF does not maintain records when the background check is called in. It only verifies that the buyer is an eligable buyer, that the buyer has been truthful in answering the questions on the form, as per fed regs. The dealer who sells the firearm maintains the completed paperwork for his records. There is no record of firearm serial numbers, attatched to the indivudal that purchases the item in a database at the federal or State level. There is no "registration" of firearms to people who purchase the firearms. Exception listed below......
If the dealer goes out of buisness he turns the records over to the ATF. BUT, there is NO data base and no record of firearm purchases.
Reguardless of what you may see on CSI and other liberal based hollywood TV programs.

Exception-----The only firearms that the ATF maintains data base records, is on Class III firearms, machine guns, subguns, suppressors, EOW and sbr's. Those items that require a 200.00 tax fee.
 

RyanEOD

New Member
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
67
Lafayette Gregory - THANK YOU! That hit the nail on the head and answered all my questions. +1
 

davekeller

New Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2012
Messages
41
I just want to confirm something with you guys here. I have a guy who is wanting to buy my rifle and he lives in NC. I told him that I believe it is illegal for me as an individual to sell to him as an individual from NC. he wants to meet near the border of SC/NC.

Here's what I said to him:
I've read up on some stuff and it's illegal to sell/trade across state lines. It's fine if I FTF to a resident of SC but not if you're a resident of NC. I've read that we would have to do it through an FFL if you are a resident of NC. Other that that, I'm game to FFL it to you if you will cover the FFL cost. I can take it up to a gun shop today if you send the money through PayPal or something like that once I give you the FFL number/info. How does that sound?
This was his response:
The state to state thing is true if your a dealer.But not an individual. I am Willing to meet you with cash, I am a ccw permit holder here in nc, I will sign a bill of sale, nothing to hide. But I don't have time for anything else. Just let me know.
What should I do guys?
 

bigfutz

Active Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,607
Doesn't have time? Tell him you don't have time to spend in jail. Sounds really fishy to me. Next he will offer you more than it's worth... Tell him if he doesn't have time to make you feel comfortable about the sale, then he needs to quit wasting your time talking about it. You are not a business, so you reserve the right to NOT do business with anyone for any reason.


davekeller said:
This was his response:
The state to state thing is true if your a dealer.But not an individual. I am Willing to meet you with cash, I am a ccw permit holder here in nc, I will sign a bill of sale, nothing to hide. But I don't have time for anything else. Just let me know.
What should I do guys?
 

bigfutz

Active Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,607
So how then all the agencies pick up people based on the ballistics computer? I thought if they got a slug or casing they could tell who owned the gun? At least tell everyone who owns whatever caliber. And they can zoom infinitely on security footage, then run it through facial recognition, and locate you with a satellite. Oh wait, that's TV land. But seriously, do they not collect the S/N and purchaser info during an FFL audit? I must admit, I don't believe 100% there is no database.

lafayette gregory said:
No this is not the fact------There is no data base! It is a federal violation for the Goveernment to maintain records of firearm purchases. The ATF does not maintain records when the background check is called in. It only verifies that the buyer is an eligable buyer, that the buyer has been truthful in answering the questions on the form, as per fed regs. The dealer who sells the firearm maintains the completed paperwork for his records. There is no record of firearm serial numbers, attatched to the indivudal that purchases the item in a database at the federal or State level. There is no "registration" of firearms to people who purchase the firearms. Exception listed below......
If the dealer goes out of buisness he turns the records over to the ATF. BUT, there is NO data base and no record of firearm purchases.
Reguardless of what you may see on CSI and other liberal based hollywood TV programs.

Exception-----The only firearms that the ATF maintains data base records, is on Class III firearms, machine guns, subguns, suppressors, EOW and sbr's. Those items that require a 200.00 tax fee.
 

bigfutz

Active Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2011
Messages
1,607
RyanEOD said:
Lafayette Gregory - THANK YOU! That hit the nail on the head and answered all my questions. +1
I am wary of who I would sell a firearm to FTF. The legal paper trail stops at the FFL transfer. So if the gun you bought at Academy and sold to some guy on iwanna turns up at a crime scene, you had better have some idea where to point the finger. Personally, I like to deal with people I know, or to get a photocopy of a drivers license or something. Even an email correspondence is a good thing to keep on file.
 

John Canuck

New Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Messages
832
Here is a posting from another gun trader site. They host tables at gun shows were members can do private transactions.

ATTENTION -- If you attended our table at the Showplace gun show in March and sold a S&W .40 pistol please contact me. The buyer of that gun had it stolen along with the bill of sale. If this was your gun that you sold please contact me.
:?

Now, imagine you are the seller, and you wrote down your personnel information on this bill of sale. Your name and address is now in the hands of a criminal. Not the greatest plan for opsec.

This is why I never provide my personnel information during a private transaction. I'm always up front about it, and of course the seller is free to decline with no hard feelings.

I've had one seller demand I provide my name and address before the meetso "he could print a receipt with the information on it". Um, no. I'm cautious around anyone who wants to know too much about me.

Just something to think about.
 

armaborealis

New Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
575
bigfutz said:
So how then all the agencies pick up people based on the ballistics computer? I thought if they got a slug or casing they could tell who owned the gun? At least tell everyone who owns whatever caliber. And they can zoom infinitely on security footage, then run it through facial recognition, and locate you with a satellite. Oh wait, that's TV land. But seriously, do they not collect the S/N and purchaser info during an FFL audit? I must admit, I don't believe 100% there is no database.

I think you're talking about a "trace." When a gun used in a crime is recovered, the authorities run the serial number by the manufacturer. The manufacturer tells them which distributer that s/n was sent to. The distributer tells them which retailer the s/n was sent to. The retailer then pulls the 4473 filled out by the first purchaser at time of sale. If the retailer is out of business, then all the 4473s are given to the ATF so they can run the trace. I suspect that most large companies keep their records digitally, so except for the last step with the 4473 this is a pretty quick process.

While some states (like Maryland) require manufacturers to keep a "ballistic database" of all firearms purchased, these programs have been highly ineffective. Maryland spent about $2.6 million per conviction garnered from their "ballistic fingerprint" database. Error rates are also really high and the systems are easily defeated; using a different brand of ammunition than what was test fired, for example, can cause high error rates.

So the bottom line is that if you were the last person to fill out a 4473 on a firearm, and that firearm is later recovered in a crime with an intact serial number, it will be traced back to you in a few days or even hours. At that point you might feel more comfortable having a credible explanation of how that firearm was disposed of (destroyed, sold, lost/stolen, whatever). You DO NOT want it to come up that you knowingly sold to someone across state lines who did not possess a valid FFL (including C&R for the right types of guns) or who you had reason to believe was a prohibited person.
 

Cohiba

New Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
91
This is a basic tutorial for buying, selling, and shipping firearms IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE 1968 GUN CONTROL ACT AND U.S. POSTAL REGULATIONS.

The information presented here is taken directly from Title 18 United States Code, Chapter 44, Title 18 United States Code Chapter 83, and Title 27 CFR Chapter II Part 478 ? Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition as presented in the ?Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide.? (ATF publication 5300.4, revised September 2005.) http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf

Additional information is also presented from the United States Postal Service Domestic Mail Manual. http://pe.usps.com/framepdf.asp?Dest=dmmtoc.pdf


More anxiety and resulting misinformation has resulted from lawful firearms transactions than most any other consumer action conducted today. It?s important to understand the basic scope of the main federal firearms law regulating the sale and transfer of firearms whenever you find yourself engaged in buying and selling firearms and firearm-related items. The 1968 Gun Control Act, sometimes referred to as the ?68 GCA, is the major firearms law currently in force in the United States. It sets the minimum standards that state and other local firearms laws must follow. The main purpose of the ?68 GCA is the regulation of interstate firearms commerce. It establishes the Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) system that we know today and establishes standards of conduct for FFL holders. This same law also requires that most interstate firearms commerce must occur via an FFL holder.

What the ?68 GCA does NOT do is provide regulation and standards of conduct for most firearms transactions between non-FFL holders or laypersons. These are governed primarily by laws enacted at the state and local level. (Laypersons are commonly referred to as ?unlicensed persons? in BATFE literature.) Most of the ?68 GCA addresses conduct of business by licensees and many unlicensed persons mistakenly believe this is directed at their conduct as a gun owner.

With regard to an unlicensed person making an interstate purchase or sale of a gun, this is what the ?68 GCA says:

?? 922 Unlawful acts.

(a)
It shall be unlawful?

(3) for any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to transport into or receive in the State where he resides (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, the State where it maintains a place of business) any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained by such person outside that State, except that this paragraph (A) shall not preclude any person who lawfully acquires a firearm by bequest or intestate succession in a State other than his State of residence from transporting the firearm into or receiving it in that State, if it is lawful for such person to purchase or possess such firearm in that State, (B) shall not apply to the transportation or receipt of a firearm obtained in conformity with subsection (b) (3) of this section, and (C) shall not apply to the transportation of any firearm acquired in any State prior to the effective date of this chapter;

(5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and (B) the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;

The first paragraph simply stated says:

?It shall be unlawful?for any person other than a?licensed dealer?to?receive in the State where he resides?any firearm purchased or otherwise obtained?outside that State.? It means you may NOT legally purchase and directly receive a firearm from an out of state source unless you hold an FFL.

The second paragraph simply stated says:

?It shall be unlawful?to? transfer?any firearm ?to any person other than a?licensed dealer? who the transferor knows?does not reside in?the State in which the transferor resides?? It means you CANNOT transfer a firearm to someone who is not a resident of your state unless the buyer possesses an FFL.

There is another part of that that I?ll touch on just briefly concerning buying long guns from an out-of-state FFL holder.

?? 922 Unlawful acts.

(b)
It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or deliver?

(3) any firearm to any person who the licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this paragraph (A) shall not apply to the sale or delivery of any rifle or shotgun to a resident of a State other than a State in which the licensee's place of business is located if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States (and any licensed manufacturer, importer or dealer shall be presumed, for purposes of this subparagraph, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to have had actual knowledge of the State laws and published ordinances of both States), and (B) shall not apply to the loan or rental of a firearm to any person for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes;?

I wanted to highlight this because it spells out that an unlicensed person may purchase a long gun from an out-of-state dealer in an in-person, over-the-counter transaction. If you?re on vacation to Jellystone and you see that cool new Benelli shotgun that no one back home had, you may buy it provided these terms are met:

?It shall be unlawful for any?licensed dealer?to sell?any firearm to any person who the licensee knows does not reside in the State in which the licensee's place of business is located, except that this?shall not apply to the sale?of any rifle or shotgun?if the transferee meets in person with the transferor to accomplish the transfer, and the sale, delivery, and receipt fully comply with the legal conditions of sale in both such States??

http://www.atf.gov/publications/firearms/state-laws/30th-edition/index.html

Another part of the ?68 GCA that is misunderstood is the identification of an FFL holder. The ?68 GCA only makes provisions for the exchange of license copies by FFL holders, there is nothing to require or in any way legally compel an FFL holder to provide a copy of a license to an unlicensed person.

This is what the ?68 GCA says with regard to providing copies of licenses:

?? 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.

A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multi-licensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multi-licensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license.

? 478.95 Certified copy of license.

The license furnished to each person licensed under the provisions of this part contains a purchasing certification statement. This original license may be reproduced and the reproduction then certified by the licensee for use pursuant to ? 478.94. If the licensee desires an additional copy of the license for certification (instead of making a reproduction of the original license), the licensee may submit a request, in writing, for a certified copy or copies of the license to the Chief, National Licensing Center. The request must set forth the name, trade name (if any) and address of the licensee, and the number of license copies desired. There is a charge of $1 for each copy. The fee paid for copies of the license must accompany the request for copies. The fee may be paid by (a) cash, or (b) money order or check made payable to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms."

Simplified, it says this:

?A licensed dealer selling?firearms?to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary?? There is NO requirement under the ?68 GCA for an FFL holder to provide a copy of a license to an unlicensed person. An FFL holder at his discretion may do so, but there is no legal requirement stating such. An unlicensed person may use the BATFE?s FFL eZ Check to verify a license if this is a concern: http://www.atf.gov/applications/fflezcheck

Then there is the matter of shipping firearms. Unlicensed persons may use the United States Postal Service, UPS or Federal Express to ship long guns and UPS or Federal Express ONLY to ship handguns. (I?ll address what shipping options federal firearms licensees have later.) UPS and Federal Express each have a policy ? this is their POLICY, NOT THE LAW ? requiring handguns to be shipped via overnight. There is no law requiring overnight shipping services to be used, nor is there any law requiring you to notify anyone you?re shipping a firearm provided the recipient is a federal firearms licensee. This is what the ?68 GCA says about shipping firearms:

"? 922 Unlawful acts.

(e)
It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce, to persons other than licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, or licensed collectors, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped; except that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of the trip without violating any of the provisions of this chapter. No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

"? 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a)
No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, that any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label, tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package, luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or other container contains a firearm."

Simply stated, it says this:

"It shall be unlawful for any person knowingly to deliver or cause to be delivered...to persons other than...licensed dealers...any package...in which there is any firearm...without written notice to the carrier that such firearm...is being...shipped..."

You can save yourself a lot of headaches with UPS and Federal Express by opening up an account online. You can print, attach, and pay for shipping labels without having to stand in line or having to argue with a misinformed little person at one of their service counters. Accounts are free and you can either drop off or give to a driver when you?re ready to ship. (Scheduling a pickup is an extra expense you may want to avoid.)

https://www.fedex.com/fcl/web/jsp/contactInfo1.jsp?appName=oadr&locale=us_en&step3URL=https://www.fedex.com/fcl/ExistingAccountFclStep3&afterwardsURL=https://www.fedex.com/fcl/optionhome&programIndicator=ss90705920

https://www.ups.com/myups/registration?sysid=myups&loc=en_US&returnto=https://www.ups.com/content/us/en/index.jsx?openModule=Tracking

The United States Postal Service (USPS) will accept long guns from unlicensed persons and handguns from federal firearms licensees:

"11.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Although unloaded rifles and shotguns not precluded by 11.1.1e and 11.1.2 are mailable, mailers must comply with the Gun Control Act of 1968, Public Law 90-618, 18 USC 921, et seq., and the rules and regulations promulgated thereunder, 27 CFR 178, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the gun is unloaded and not precluded by 11.1.1e

11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms

Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice."

12.1.5 Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

Handguns may also be mailed between licensed manufacturers of firearms, licensed dealers of firearms, and licensed importers of firearms in customary trade shipments, or for repairing or replacing parts.

12.1.6 Certificate of Manufacturers, Dealers, and Importers

A federal firearms licensee manufacturer, dealer or importer need not file the affidavit under 12.1.4, but must file with the postmaster a statement on Form 1508 signed by the mailer that he or she is a licensed manufacturer, dealer or importer of firearms. The mailer must also state that the parcels containing handguns, or parts and components of handguns under 12.1.2d, are being mailed in customary trade shipments or contain such articles for repairing or replacing parts, and that to the best of their knowledge the addressees are licensed manufacturers, dealers or importers of firearms.

PS 1508 for dealers: http://about.usps.com/forms/ps1508.pdf

Should you need to find an FFL holder to receive a firearm, try here:

http://www.gunbroker.com/FFL/DealerNetwork.aspx
http://www.gunsamerica.com/FFLSearch.htm

SHIPPING FIREARMS TO CALIFORNIA

Shipping to California has been the single biggest source of confusion for gun owners since the expiration of the AWB. THERE ARE NO SPECIAL REGULATIONS THAT APPLY TO UNLICENSED PERSONS WISHING TO SHIP TO CALIFORNIA. SIMPLY SHIP AS YOU WOULD TO A FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEE IN ANY OTHER STATE.

Below is the text to section 27555 of the California Penal Code as it applies to FEDERAL FIREARMS LICENSEES wishing to ship firearms to California -- THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO AN UNLICENSED PERSON:

"27555. (a) (1) Commencing July 1, 2008, a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code may not sell, deliver, or transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44 (commencing with Section 921) of Title 18 of the United States Code unless, prior to delivery, the person intending to sell, deliver, or transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended sale, delivery, or transfer, from the Department of Justice."

It states:

"...a person who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44...of Title 18 of the United States Code may not...transfer a firearm to a person in California who is licensed pursuant to Chapter 44...of Title 18 of the United States Code unless...the person intending to...transfer the firearm obtains a verification number via the Internet for the intended...transfer from the Department of Justice."

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=27001-28000&file=27500-27590
http://oag.ca.gov/firearms/cflcoverview

What this does is requires an FFL holder to verify the validity of the California FFL holder's license with the State of California prior to shipping a firearm there. It ONLY applies to FFL holders wishing to ship to California and has absolutely NO bearing on an unlicensed person.
 

Tigerstripe

Active Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2011
Messages
2,304
and that big pile of bull crap does what?

i legally mailed through the US postal service, an AR-10 to California. im not an FFL and where it went is not an FFL.

all that shine should be wiped off the law books.

we have terrorist camps in SC. is someone watching and CHECKING to make sure they follow all the 22,000 gun laws?
 

Cohiba

New Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2013
Messages
91
Tigerstripe said:
is someone watching and CHECKING to make sure they follow all the 22,000 gun laws?
About 4800 overpaid, undertrained, elitest, self grandizzing ATF agents. Of which I have met, trained and shared a meal with a few with on occasion.
Their primary mission is now NOT what people think. It is catching people who are acting as PSUDO FFL's. People engaged in the active buisness of buying and selling firearms without a FFL.
They act in accordance with directives. They dont just show up to work one day and decide what they are going to investigate.
They are briefed and directed towards cases via complaints from LE and civilians.
In some, very few, cases they will actually initiate an investigation. But for the most part they assume investigations started at the level of a local street cop.
 
Top