Black Rifles questions

[biganimal]

anyone that knows me will realize that I'm sitting here with "crow" on my plate! I have been a quasi opponent of rifles of the AR type. This first started when my brother returned from Viet-Nam complaining about the crappy M-16 in '67. The hatred continued during my own tour in '72. I even agreed to carry the M60 to avoid "Matty Mattel". Even tho I spent 12 yrs active and 10 years in the reserves I avoided them as much as I could.
Recently at the range a friend let me shoot his Bushmaster and my aversion has slipped away. I am now in the market for an AR. I only have a couple of questions concerning my choices.

I want one that will safely fire both .223 and 5.56 Nato, so what one do I get and what rate of twist will be best 1 in 7" or 1in 9"?

 

[Tigerstripe]

im just the first to answer and someone might tell you im wrong, but i dont pay any attention to the difference between 5.56 and 223 or between 7.62X51 and 308.

the first reloading manuals i used (1970?) did not differentiate between them EXCEPT for the fact that millitary cases are thicker. also even old manuals explained that THEY reduced their charge data by 10%. then they suggest you reduce that.

the thicker case might be overloaded by a 223 load but i dont think thats possible WITH THE POWDERS i use because even a compressed load is less than the charge limits.(in 5.56)

i have gotten over the HOT LOAD fancy in my reloading. maybe 44mag. a friend loads 24 grains and i load 21 of the same for 223,5.56. i dont see using more for our machine guns at less than 200 yds just plinking and spraying.

someone brought some 223 loaded with 17 grains for use with a suppressor, to the shootenzfest 2 years ago. it functioned with a suppressor. i didnt try without one. 17 gr is probably below the minimun load.

Palmetto State Armory will sell a complete skinny bbl AR for 600.00. Do me a favor though. They are not a sponser of our forum.

i see now that you are closer to other sponsers in the low country. they will answer your call. Henry just got a new truck to advertise as he tools around at alltitude. (big truck)

 

[Schultz]

The 5.56/223 difference isn't anything to worry about However 7.62x51/308 is but thats another story. As for 1/7 or 1/9 it depends on what you want want to do. 1/9 is good for the lighter grain bullets up to about 62 grain whereas 75 and 77 grain preform well with a 1/7 twist. If your going for match type accuracy out beyond say 300 yrds I would go with the 1/7, If your wanting it for plinking and such the 1/9 is good enough.

 

[Clicker]

I want one that will safely fire both .223 and 5.56 Nato, so what one do I get and what rate of twist will be best 1 in 7" or 1in 9"?

I'd suggest a 5.56 NATO marked barrel unless you are trying to put together a varmint/target rifle. The NATO spec ammo is slightly higher pressure and will therefore handle 223 ammo w/o any problems.

My gut feeling on twist rates is the 1 in 7" twist is kinda fast for light bullets (40 to 55 grain) but seems to be the way folks go in order to shoot the really heavy stuff. For all around plinking the 1 in 9" twist would probably work out well.

I do own a 24" 1 in 10" heavy barreled upper sporting a 8x32 scope for shooting flies but it's been a long time since I've done any real work with it. My motto lately has been "accuracy through volume".

 

[BHE]

Do Not get a rifle chambered in .223 and try to shoot 5.56 in it.....You could stick the case in the chamber..
There are dimensional differences between .223 chambers and 5.56 chambers.. I prefer 5.56 chambers as they will accept both types of ammo. I am also not a fan of the .223 Wylde chamber. I have seen more Wylde chambered rifles have issues than any other chambering.


What type(s) of shooting do you mostly do? What is your budget?

I prefer 18" stainless steel barrels chambered in 5.56 with a 1-8 twist. They offer superb accuracy and will shoot 55g - 77g projectiles equally well. This type of setup costs a bit more but offers the best performance and versatility overall.

The AR's of today are not the AR's of the Vietnam era...... Much development has been done in the last 45+ years.... We are currently in " The Golden Age of the AR". Take advantage of it!

 

[biganimal]

thanks guys.
this really helps
I have owned in the past ( mid-eighties) a remington 700 in 223 and a NEF handi rifle in the same caliber and only used my reloads. I loaded according to a 1970 issue of Speer's load book which did not differentiate between the two. as for the twist of those long gone rifles I haven't a clue now, but they both shot very well with 50-62 gr bullets.

I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't gonna get into trouble when loading for the "plastic gun" (Hey some habits die hard LOL).

I gave up loading the HOT loads many many years ago as I tend to turn my range sessions into marathons. when ya take 12 guns to the range and rip off 100-200 rounds in each the HOT ones will soon tear you up!

again thanks for the info.

 

[Clicker]

Something to keep in mind when loading for semi rifles like the AR is the use of a small base sizing die. While it's not an absolute necessity it probably ensures the ammo chambers in a variety of different guns. On the flip side the most accurate load I fired in one of my uppers was reloaded using a standard sizer die.

 

[thebrasilian]

5.56 do have higher pressures than 223. Just ask the question when you go to purchase if it is a 5.56 barrel or not. Personally, I would stick with the 5.56 and cover both bases.
Here's a good write up: http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/556-22 ... 22582.html
As far as twist I haven't researched it enough. But I think it is more important when you're looking into longer barrels for accuracy and it will also depend on the ammo you plan to shoot.

 

[HOLY DIVER]

as far as a great rifle built the way there suposed to be i recomend Bravo Company Machine (BCM) i have one of there 16inch mid-lenth carbines and i love it i've put 700rounds through it with out cleaning it just lubed the bcg every range trip,ZERO malfunctions. allright now the twist my BCM is a 1/7 twist,a few weeks ago we set up an 8inch steel plate at 300yds i nailed it every time i pulled the trigger with American Eagle 55gr fmj ammo my optics are an EoTech 512 with no magnification.keep in mind that rifle was hitting a 8inch steel plate with 700 rds through it with out cleaning it. check out BCM's website read reviews,heck if your any where close to Spartanburg you can shoot mine and try it out before you buy one.

 

[Tigerstripe]

Diver, im near Sptbg.

ill shoot yours and you can shoot mine, if that doesnt sound gay.

 

[HOLY DIVER]

tiger, letts go shoot!

 

[Tigerstripe]

I just saw your post. i was going to look at the forum before i go out to the back yard and spray a few 22s.

checked a few 223 reloads yesterday.

what do you do on the weekends? my wife works till 2 or 3 so before that is when i try to get together with someone to shoot more than just a few.

 

[biganimal]

I think I have finally decided.
My next purchase will most likely be an Armalite AR-15 M15A4B 20" HBAR . The good folks at Armalite were very helpful in making my decision.
I want to thank everyone here that posted. I took everything into consideration, then made the final cut.
Thanks

 

[Dave29461]

You'll enjoy that. AR's are like tater chips. You'll want another'n in with a different profile in no time.

 

[HOLY DIVER]

Tiger i shoot on the weekend!

 

[HOLY DIVER]

animal you will be happy with the AR you picked! just remember when you get we want to see pics! and a range report!

 

[biganimal]

yessir pics will posted upon arrival of the new toy