New York institutes department of precrime

fiundagner

New Member
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08/08/ ... ss-system/

NEW YORK (CBSNewYork) ? A dramatic new way to track criminals and potential terrorists was unveiled Wednesday by Mayor Michael Bloomberg and NYPD Commissioner Ray Kelly.

It melds cameras, computers and data bases capable of nabbing bad guys before they even know they?re under suspicion.

If a suspicious package is left at a location by a terrorist the NYPD will now be able to instantly tap into video feeds to look back in time to see who left it there, and that?s just one of the many things the NYPD?s new high-tech ?Domain Awareness System? can do, CBS 2?s Marcia Kramer reported ?We are not your mom and pop police department anymore. We are in the next century. We are leading the pack,? Bloomberg said.

The system uses 3,000 cameras positioned in Lower Manhattan south of Canal Street, river to river, and between 30th and 60th streets, river to river. It links up to license plate readers, 911 calls and other NYPD data records.

It will enable investigators to do things like:
* Identify whether a radiation alarm was set off by actual radiation, a weapon, or a harmless medical isotope
* Track where a suspect?s car is located, and where it has been in the past few days, weeks or months
* Instantly see a suspect?s arrest record, and 911 calls related to the crime
?It?s a tool that meets the needs of the Department, one that will help protect New Yorkers and keep us safe from crime and terrorism for years to come,?

?The bad guys have everything that we do, too. And if you really want to worry about security and freedoms, that?s the first thing,? Bloomberg added.

Because the system was co-developed by the city the NYPD will get 30 percent of the revenue that comes from selling it to other localities.

The system also has mapping features that allow cops to develop crime patterns in a particular neighborhood or borough.

So the city that has made it illegal to have more than 16oz's of soda, where salt and trans-fats are banned from public restaurants, and where bottlefeeding is a crime against public health (and don't even get us started on the gun laws) has instituted a 100% 24-7/365 surveillance system upon all its residents. Furthermore it plans to sell it to other locations, for a measly 30% profit (does that qualify as an obscene profit? Think the government will tax it as one?)) The city already has a history of going beyond its borders and authority in trying to proactively enforce laws (their gun shop "sting" operations, their surveillance in other cities). Does anyone not think they wont abuse this power.

forget the old line about "if your not doing anything wrong you don't have anything to worry about". when laws were about punishing someone for doing something wrong it was one thing. But now laws are designed to proactively prevent wrongdoing "for your own good' (soda, trans-fats and salt ban for example). when you can be punished for salting your food (ok, the restaurant can be punished for making it available to you) and the power to enforce it exists there is a problem.

"ignorance of the law is no excuse" cant cut it when there are 100's of new laws passed every year concerning everything from breastfeeding to soda size. it is impossible for anyone who is not a lawyer or a computer to keep up with them. when the laws equaled do no harm to another is was fairly common sense what you could and couldn't do, but when laws now cover how much trash you are allowed to throw away, or force you to recycle saran wrap you can not possibly be expected to keep up with them all. Especially since many of the more ruinous ones are passed in conjunction with something completely separate (as an example see the high capacity mag ban tacked onto the cyber security bill). this has to stop somewhere, but how do you get it to stop? I cannot envision that the people of new york wanted this kind of all intrusive big brother esq system installed by their mayor, yet even if they vote him out the system is still there. No police department would ever give up that kind of power "for the public good", yet it always leads to abuses. Even if this department uses it with strictly good intentions,who is to say the next will. i can easily see a mayor or public official demanding it be used to track a political opponent to discredit or disqualify them. Is it that much harder to see someone using it against an ex in a bitter divorce, or to determine if someone overeats or doesn't eat enough vegetables (in the name of "public health"). If many of these crimes only carry a fine or fee, can you imagine a city not using it to generate revenue in times of cash strappedness (like say a recession or depression)?
 

fordnut

Active Member
BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING YOU....Be Warned...It's Coming....

Let Bloomburg run with the ball for awhike and the game will be over...

Steve
 

bigfutz

Active Member
So I wonder if you stand in Grand Central Station guzzling down a 2 liter Mtn Dew if a SWAT team will drop from the skylights and nab you?

I think they got the idea for this system from the Denzel Washington movie Deja Vu.
 
lafayette gregory said:
I know how to fix that- I don't go to NY.
EXACTLY - If you don't like what they are doing don't go to NYC.

There are plenty of people that want to be comforted by the arms of Big Brother.
 

bigfutz

Active Member
melloyello said:
lafayette gregory said:
I know how to fix that- I don't go to NY.
EXACTLY - If you don't like what they are doing don't go to NYC.

There are plenty of people that want to be comforted by the arms of Big Brother.
Ditto. And I just can't understand why all those homeless people don't just wander out into the woods and live off the land. If I were to become jobless/homeless/broke/destitute, that's exactly what I would do.
 

C_Carson

New Member
The problem with "just don't go to NY", is that they have already been doing this in California for quite some time. Now it's in New York. Illinois is probably third, and then...hmm, who will they pick next? :shock:
 
C_Carson said:
The problem with "just don't go to NY", is that they have already been doing this in California for quite some time. Now it's in New York. Illinois is probably third, and then...hmm, who will they pick next? :shock:
Who is this "they" you are talkin bout? The people in these states get what they deserve. They voted for them.

And besides- They are only looking for the bad guys. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
I do not see where these cameras are being forced on people in their private homes? They are all in public areas.
 

fiundagner

New Member
ok. I'm not planning on going to new york. how about when they bring it to Charleston, one of the largest ports in the southeast? with a booming tourist trade to boot? I have worked hard to finally get a decent job that lets me support my family, with good benefits. Should i then leave the last 4 years of work behind? And when it comes to the next city i move to what happens? and the one after that? or when it comes to national parks and or wilderness areas?

Imagine the next shootenfest has a remote camera set up, and the ATF suddenly "randomly" shows up to question everyone who brings out their class 3 items. Sure, they are not doing anything wrong, but isn't it a little intrusive when someone comes out and says "show me your papers"? Or stops you on the street (possibly with swat team assistance? and demands to see your CWP because the remote camera has determined you have a gun concealed on you? (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/1 ... 13813.html) or sees you purchasing a gun and carrying it out to your car, then follows you home and makes a note in the database that their is a gun in this house over here? its not a gun registry, its a database of which houses have guns in them. No names, calibers, or serial numbers recorded, just addresses and check marks.

My question still stands. once it is in place you can vote out the politicians that let it be installed, but the system is still there. What about the cops and bureaucrats? Can't vote them out. And its a "public safety" issue. You'er in favor of "public safety", aren't you? Or do you hate cops and law enforcement? Are you an NRA member? Hmmmm.... doesn't that make you a potential terrorist? (http://usahitman.com/dhs-domestic-terrorist-if/ (i cant find the orginal memo online anymore. the one I had saved gives me a 404 error now)) (see also http://www.scribd.com/doc/74788445/DHS- ... icon-FINAL) or you might be a vet coming back from oversees with a shot of PTSD on the side. And every time you buy a can of gas for you lawnmower and some fetilizer for your garden the local D comes by to check up on you? Your not doing anything wrong, but should you have to defend your actions?
 

Midnight Raver

Active Member
?Domain Awareness System?

Nice, real nice. Funny, people used to emmigrate if possible or defect to the USA to escape from oppression and awful conditions. But in the 21st century USSA they may start thinking twice about it in the not too distant future. It just might help curb legal and illegal immigration somewhere down the line.

As for the powers that be- who watches the watchers, hmm? Even the LEOs better watch their backs with this kind of system. Why they might even start ratting each other out to cover their own asses. A nice new gateway for even higher and more devious levels of corruption.

It's starting to look more and more like "Escape from New York" and "Escape from LA". :?

If they even THINK about banning red meat I'm going rogue!!! :evil:
 

C_Carson

New Member
lafayette gregory said:
C_Carson said:
The problem with "just don't go to NY", is that they have already been doing this in California for quite some time. Now it's in New York. Illinois is probably third, and then...hmm, who will they pick next? :shock:
Who is this "they" you are talkin bout? The people in these states get what they deserve. They voted for them.

And besides- They are only looking for the bad guys. If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to worry about.
I do not see where these cameras are being forced on people in their private homes? They are all in public areas.

You talk as if every single person in those states voted for the current crop of mobsters in office. What about the folks who voted against them, and lost? Do they not matter?

As to the "if you have nothing to hide" schtick...I can't even begin to respond to that. I don't have the time, patience, or alcohol to explain to you why this is wrong. Suffice it to say, these cameras are not being forced into people's homes. YET.

Kiss kiss.
 

John Canuck

New Member
Sigh. I have nothing to hide from my wife, my kids, my friends. I have absolutely nothing I care to share with a government who proves daily that they cannot be trusted.
 

jgodfrey

New Member
Don't think they won't use it for taxing. Say you sell your neighbor an old swingset or mow his lawn for $50, won't be long before the tax man comes around to collect.
 

Enjay

New Member
It's not a matter of that I have nothing to hide, it's a matter of they have no right to know, and once something like this starts it's insidious. One tiny little step at a time and the next thing you know you have no privacy, no rights, and no freedom. Yes, I can avoid going/moving to places where such a system is installed, but for how long? I can vote for politicians who I think will stand against such things, but what about the next city or county over? I can't control them with my vote. I think if they install such systems in a notoriously high crime area such as North Charleston (no offence to those who live there) that the criminals there won't suddenly see the error of their ways and start on the straight and narrow. No, more likely they'll just relocate to an area that doesn't have the system installed.

Right now the information a system like that can provide cannot be obtained without some one physically tailing me and right now they need a court order to do that. I'm sure as heck not willing to just hand them that kind of insight into me, my life, and my habits so computer algorithms can determine how large of a potential threat I am. No one should have the ability to click on a picture of me walking down the street and have the computer analyze me and present them with my threat potential level, where I live, what vehicles I drive, what state permits/licenses I hold, my last ten sightings, who lives in my house, their personal information, their current whereabouts etc. The potential for abusing this is huge, just look at the TSA idiots and the crap they pull.

They may not be forcing them into homes, but they sure can observe your property with them. Right now Utah is asking people to register their gardens with the state, including things growing in window boxes and pots on the patio, so that they can map and track the information (and provide it to the USDA and NASS) and they're calling gardeners an important resource as food producers. They couldn't pay me enough to register my garden with anyone (the top prize is a $500 gift card), I am not a state resource!, but with a system like Bloomberg's it wouldn't matter if I wanted them to know that I grow food, they'd see it anyway.

No. This is wrong.
 

fiundagner

New Member
Ohh... i had completely forgotten about Wickard v. Filburn, (317 U.S. 111 (1942)) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn). Short version is if you grow food for personal consumption / use you can be forced to pay taxes on it (slightly broader version is you can be fined for not buying things). so what if the cameras aren't on your property. they don't stop seeing things at your property line magically. gone are the days when someone had to get out with a measuring stick and actually come onto your land to measure your grass. if the computer measures it anf figure out its to tall theirs a fine. growing a home vegetable garden? its this big, this much space equates to this much production on average, heres your tax bill. has that food been FDA inspected? Bought carbon credits for that old lawnmower? Are your a certified mechanic to be changing that oil? Opps, spilled a bit when you were hanging it/ heres your EPA fine. The cameras sight line doesn't magically stop when it hits you property line, and it an automatically monitor for anything that can be programmed. Don't even get me started on how it could be used to look into your windows and doors. they don't have to be in your house to observe what your doing.

Red lights are the bane of my existence. i drive a motorcycle to work at 430 in the morning. It is not heavy enough or large enough to trigger the sensors on most red lights (rivers and remount, dorchester and ashley phosphate, airport drive(?) and international). I have sat for up to 15 min waiting for a light to change (or for a turn light) before, even with no traffic in any direction, because i have gotten tickets in years past for not waiting, from on site officers who sat on the corner watching. Think red light cameras would be any more forgiving? Just as some additional examples a few states have laws that regulate how much food your allowed to have on hand (leftovers from world war 2 anti hoarding laws. they aren't enforced, but they are still on the books), how you can have sex (blue laws), if you have to have shoes on in a personal car (in Georgia if you are stopped and a female in the vehicle with you does not have shoes on you can be charged with rape)9again old law not enforced but its may still be on the books), What kind of ammunition you can own (New jersey i believe), and what colors you can paint the inside of your house. So even if you have nothing to hide, do you want something with perfect recall that never gets tired watching you all the time? some laws exist simply to have something to charge people with (speed traps anyone, or better yet open container. your not drunk, and we don't think you were drinking, but theirs this empty beer can wedged under the seat). if nothing else can be found or proved to exist, and even if its just a 25$ fine, those add up fast.
 
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