.30 cal/7.62mm Throwdown!

[Parhams0508]

I've been thinking about a .30 caliber bolt-action rifle for a long time. A friend of mine picked up a Savage in .308 and really likes it; I'm tempted to buy a Mosin and a spam can or two as a JIC/SHTF/TEOTWAWKI (insert whatever acronym you desire here ) rifle, and for some hunting. I like how cheap Mosins can be, but I would really prefer to just get a good, solid, accurate rifle in a .30 caliber derivative. So, here's what I came up with from about an hour and a half online:

.308/7.62 NATO

• OAL: 2.800? (71.12 mm); 2.75? (69.85 mm) NATO
  Bullet diameter: .308? (7.8 mm); .308? (7.82 mm) NATO
  Slightly lower muzzle velocity than 30-06 (~100 fps) in similar bullet weight; therefore, slightly faster bullet drop (around one foot at 500 yards, around five feet at 1000 yards)
  All things being equal, similar recoil to 30-06
  Rounds are lighter than 30-06 or 7.62x54r
  $0.37 to $3.33 per round (cheaperthandirt.com)

30-06

• OAL: 3.34? (85 mm)
  Bullet diameter: .308 (7.8 mm)
  Outstanding history, proven round.
  Manufactures offer same rifle in 30-06 and .308, generally.
  $0.58 to $3.33 per round (CTD)

7.62x54r

• OAL: 3.038? (7.92 mm)
  Bullet diameter: .312? (7.92 mm)
  Less power than 30-06; matches .308/7.62 NATO in performance
  Surplus gold: inexpensive ammunition and rifles.
  $0.20 to $1.38 per round (CTD)

Overall impressions: if I really want something dead from a really long ways away, I'm probably going with the 30-06 first, .308 second. If I want a highly portable, short action rifle, then I'm going .308 with a composite rifle. If QE3 and Obummer start driving up prices on everything, then I'm getting a Mosin or two and lots of ammo real fast.

Now from the peanut gallery: what do yall think? I know a whole bunch of yall have Mosins, and maybe another .30 caliber rifle to which you can compare it. I have yet to actually fire any of these calibers personally, so I'll have to borrow from the people I know who have rifles in these calibers to actually see for myself.

 

[thebrasilian]

How about .338 lapua??? :mrgreen:

 

[fordnut]

M1 Garand....

Resonable ammo prices because Korea just released millions of rounds that were stockpiled.

Also, hoping that in the near future rifles they have will hit the market...

When that happens, I will maybe pick up another Garand.

You need to shoot one before you make up your mind...

Here is a sight with some food for thought: http://www.ammogarand.com/


Steve

 

[Regulis7]

Never owned a 30-06, always wanted a Garand though so no personal opinion. I do know its been a long time favorite of big game hunters since the guys came back from WW-1.

I have owned a number of Mosin Nagants, M91/30, M38 and M44's. I prefer the M38 because its a mid size gun in a very potent caliber. Never had one of the "Sniper Grade" Mosin's, so mounting optics on a standard Mosin is not as easy as with modern bolt rifles. If you want a low cost pack away for a rainy day gun this is the one.

In .308 I have owned Rem 742, 7400 and 700's, H&K 91, FN/FAL, Norinco M14, and a 1896 Spanish Mauser carbine (ouch it hurt to shoot). If I were getting a 30cal rifle this would be my caliber choice, if I were out west would consider the .338.

 

[armaborealis]

Short answer: Go with the 308.

Long answer:

PROS OF THE 308
- The 308 provides sufficient energy for any game in the lower 48 out to 300 yards except for grizz and bison. It is even suitable for moose within about 100 to 150 yards. I talked to Alaskan guides and while it is NOT a suitable brown bear cartridge, with proper shot placement and a steady backup shooter it MIGHT be sufficient. I carried a 308 with 180 gr bullets on caribou hunts in grizz country and didn't feel terribly undergunned. It should even be effective on light game out to 500 yards, which is further than I would ever shoot in a hunting scenario.
- There are a huge variety of rifles available. You can get a 308 bolt gun, a very lightweight "mountain rifle" bolt gun, sub-MOA precision rifles, semiauto battle rifle (M1A, M1 Garand from CMP in 308, FAL, HK, AR-10, etc), single shot, or even lever action (Browning).
- There are a huge variety of factory cartridges available. You can get heavier 180 gr bullets, very flat shooting rounds, mil surp 7.62x51, and reduced recoil rounds that are gentle as an AR or 30-30 (practically).
- Recoil is less than the '06: a 165 gr 308 bullet at 2700 FPS out of a 7.5 lb rifle = 18.1 ft/lbs of recoil, whereas a 165 gr 30-06 at 2900 FPS out of a heavier 8.0 lb rifle generates 20.1 ft lbs of recoil.
- The cartridge is shorter, allowing "short action" rifles to be built around it. A short action rifle will be about half a pound lighter and a half inch shorter than a standard length action. Note that you have to spend a bit of dough to get a true short action rifle -- a lot of the budget entry level bolt guns are all standard actions then just put a blocker in the bolt area to accomodate a shorter cartridge, so you get none of the weight or bulk savings. But if you look at a Remington 700, Browning XBolt, Win Model 70 or other similar mid-tier bolt gun you will see a difference in weight/bulk.

PROS OF THE 30-06
- Provides a bit more oomph. If you anticipate taking elk past 200 or moose past 100, then a 30-06 is going to help.
- It is an entry level caliber for brown bear. My wife brought a 30-06 for our brown bear hunt. Most guides use a .338 win mag but the '06 is generally regarded as acceptable (albeit marginal) for the big bears. Its kind of like the 380 of the defensive pistol world; it will probably get the job done but you feel much more confident with something beefier. She shoots it well (4 MOA out to 400+ yards); better a 30-06 with excellent placement than a brand new magnum rifle with "less good" shot placement!

LIMS OF THE 30-06
- Ammo is more expensive and recoils more heavily.
- Limited selection of semiauto battle rifles. The M1 garand is basically it. While a fine rifle, it is not an M1A or an AR-10 or an FAL.
- Rifles will be larger and heavier due to the standard length cartridge.

As for the 7.62x54R... I have a Mosin. You get what you pay for. They are heavy. THe sights are often problematic. Ammunition selection can be problematic; surplus ammo is corrosive and not really appropriate for hunting, and there is a limited selection of soft-point hunting style ammo. Sure, you can lay in a rifle and a spam can of ammo for $200, but for a hunting rifle I'd prefer to get a Savage Axis in 308 or 30-06 than a Mosin. If I wanted to hunt with a milsurp bolt gun I'd prefer an Enfield or Mauser.

While my wife likes her 30-06 (a bargain Savage 110 that shoots almost 1MOA from the bench!!! Gotta love the Savage!), I've got to fall on the side of the 308. I've known guys who own .338 win mags and few enjoy shooting it out of a light mountain rifle. I love and enjoy collecting milsurp battle rifles but the 7.62x54R would not be my first choice for many applications. You can't go wrong with the 308.

 

[Parhams0508]

Well, I have now shot the Mosin Nagant, and I am in love. My father in law had a Limbsaver on it, and it kicked a lot less than what I was expecting (he said that my shotgun had much more kick than the Mosin, which made me smile). I will definitely put that on my purchase list, but I have a friend with a .308 Savage that I need to borrow sometime.

 

[armaborealis]

Well, I have now shot the Mosin Nagant, and I am in love. My father in law had a Limbsaver on it, and it kicked a lot less than what I was expecting (he said that my shotgun had much more kick than the Mosin, which made me smile). I will definitely put that on my purchase list, but I have a friend with a .308 Savage that I need to borrow sometime.

My 91/30 is ok, and I have a Type 53 or two on order from AIM, but I'd be critical about the round and the platform:

- What size group can you shoot under "best possible conditions?" For most folks that is prone supported or from the bench. Even an inexpensive Savage will likely shoot 1.5 MOA (1 MOA = 1 inch at 100 yards or 0.25" at 25 yards). If you're lucky with a Mosin you'll get 1-2 MOA but if the bore is shot out, or its been counter-bored, it may be significantly worse than that. A deer vital zone is perhaps 12" across and a person or large game vital zone is 20" across. The sharpshooter goal is to shoot 4 MOA from a field position (sitting, prone unsupported, etc) which allows vital area shots to 500 yards. A hunter goal might be to shoot 6 MOA allowing shots on vital zones of deer to 200 yards.
- What is the cost of non-corrosive soft point ammunition? How does that compare to a 308 or 30-06? Yes -- you can lay in a spam can of corrosive mil block surplus for super cheap. It is ok for practice. It will likely get the job done for white tail sized game but I would much prefer a soft point. I've also had "fair" luck with the com block corrosive stuff as far as accuracy goes -- it seems like there's a 5-20% chance of a round being a "flier" with that stuff, which is way higher than new manufacture. That's anecdotal based on a limited sample, but still, with a rifle, I like to know that the first shot will go where I intend it to go assuming I do my part. You can practice with the cheap stuff but you will need to rezero with the good stuff.
- Are you willing to deal with sight issues? It is common for the front sight to be too short. Jury rigging a scope attachment or fixing the front sight can cost serious $$$. THe irons provided may be fairly rough depending on what you're used to.
- Are you cool with the 7.62x54R rifle options? You can get a 91/30, a 1938 carbine (probably most desirable IMHO), a M44 or Type 53 knockoff, or a Dragunov. And that's about it.

Finally, if you do decide to get a Mosin, I'd suggest checking out the FFL03 "Curios and Relics." It will save you the FFL transfer fee on a Mosin. With the C&R FFL, you will spend $30 for the 3-year fee but you will save the FFL transfer fee for a rifle. Plus, you get dealer pricing at Midway and other online retailers.

If $$$ is no object then sure, get a Mosin AND a 30-06 Garand AND a nice 308. Otherwise save the $200-300 you'll spend on a Mosin and a spam can of ammo and apply the costs for a nice 308 system... Or, depending on your application, just get into the AR for $550.

I'm not opposed to Mosins. I have a few and a spam can myself. I'd just be realistic about what they can accomplish. With new ammo and a nice, quality rifle with decent bore and good sights, yes, it can be an excellent system. I've brought it hunting, it is a .30 cal round, I'd shoot mine to 100-200 yards with reasonable confidence. If I had to grab one .30 cal rifle from the safe for hunting or other field use, though, it'd be either my wife's bargain pawn shop 30-06 savage or my XBolt stainless in 308.

 

[Paco]

- Are you cool with the 7.62x54R rifle options? You can get a 91/30, a 1938 carbine (probably most desirable IMHO), a M44 or Type 53 knockoff, or a Dragunov. And that's about it.

Don't forget about the Molot VEPR in 7.62x54R!
Granted mine was 10x more than a 91/30 (I got the VEPR Hunter 7.62x54R)

I think armaborealis hit the nail on the head with his post.

 

[Parhams0508]

Thanks for the anecdotes, that really goes a long way with me. I actually work within walking distance of Darrell (aka Dr M. Nagant) at SC Gun Co, and I'm confident that I can find a decent 91/30 from him. I've definitely read up on the rifle(s), the round, and their capabilities, and I feel that it is a decent platform, albeit a cheap one. I'm not looking to be the next winner on Top Shot, or get that 1000 yard kill with the Mosin, but just have a gun with a lot of ammo that won't break the bank.

But, consistency and reliability are vital for a gun and the ammo one shoots out of it. So I might hold off until I find a .308 at a got-to-get-it-now price.

And as far as the AR, I'm building one right now; I have the lower and the LPK, and I'm attempting to sell some stuff and save up for the upper assembly and the stock.

 

[melloyello]

Any of the 3 are great choices of cartridges.
I've shot all three in different rifles and carbines.

I like to shoot ...so my opinions are based on consumables..

When it comes to all around cartridge I prefer the 308 (7.62 NATO).
Surplus market is still alive with these rounds, still used actively in military's around the world, commercially very easy to get.

I like the 30-06 too, but the surplus market comes and goes, military ammo production?? but is easily commercially available.

The 7.62x54R is an all around versatile round too, a huge amount of old surplus but corrosive.
Still used in the military's today but commercial off the shelf not as easy to find for non-corrosive (at this time).

There are plenty of platforms for these cartridges, but I would say the 308 has the most...

Don't limit yourself to Mosin's when it comes to 7.62x54R: PSL, ROMAK, Dragunov, VEPR (mentioned earlier), SVT (Tokarev), AVS-36 (Simonov's), and Winchester 1895 Lever Action to name a few.

 

[armaborealis]

The issue I see with the semiauto 7.62x54R rifles is that if you want to fire cheap ComBlock surplus ammo, you will be venting corrosive gases through the gas system. That sounds like a bad idea to me. The match-grade Russian 7N1 and 7N14 is expensive. While I love old rifles and collect milsurp rifles myself, I don't know that spending a grand or so on an SVT-40 or Dragunov would be the way to go if I wanted a semiauto battle rifle; for that amount of $$$ I can be looking at CMP 308 Garands, CMP 30-06 Garands, FALs, M1As, HK-91s, Saigas, a Ruger or Savage Scout Rifle with glass, etc. Also, with further imports of these foreign rifles banned, I'd be concerned about long term viability of the platform, accessibility of spare parts, magazines, etc. With the semiauto 7.62x54R you're spending as much money as you would for a 308 battle rifle for a platform with more problems and fewer ammunition choices -- the non-corrosive choices may be even more expensive than just getting 308!

I just don't know that any of the 7.62x54R options would be my first choice. The Mosins are ok as unique pieces of history and rough knock about trunk or cabin rifles due to their price point and rugged design, other than that, I think you can do better. Now, if there was a Saiga in 7.62x54R for $600 on the market, and more supplies of non-corrosive ammo available, I'd be more interested. I don't see either happening though.

Of course, I did just use my C&R FFL to order a pair of Type 53s and a spam can so clearly I am not violently opposed to the 7.62x54R! It just wouldn't be my first choice for all around use as a cartridge.

 

[rotarymike]

Don't forget about the Molot VEPR in 7.62x54R!
Granted mine was 10x more than a 91/30 (I got the VEPR Hunter 7.62x54R)

Came here to mention Paco's Vepr. Very nice shooting rifle, albeit expensive (but in the same range as a decent AR-10, IMHO).

.308 seems to be the current fad (and by current I mean for a decade +). The surplus availability of 7.62x51 probably helps that; the surplus .30-06 has tapered off although it seems like you can still occasionally get Greek from CMP. Many other guns take it, as mentioned above.

My preference is personally .30-06, in that I can get it anywhere in the US and with a huge selection of projectiles and energies. Easy to reload, with almost endless options. You can load it hotter (.308 or CIP pressure specs) in a good rifle like a Mauser derivative and really reach out with it. To me, the choice was that it's the largest case capacity I can fit in a standard length Mauser action on a custom rifle. I considered 8mm-06 and .338-06 but you really start to limit your bullet choices. I don't want to have to start turning my own on my lathe anytime soon. But I can take my fancy .30-06 rifle that has fiddly custom handloads and go buy a box of something at Dick's for under $20 and it will still shoot it just fine. I suppose the same can be said for .308.

I would stick with the .308 diameter rounds (US .30 caliber rounds) due to availability - the .311 family (commbloc) is mostly FMJ which is not appropriate for humane hunting. Of course, you can get brown bear 7.62x54R round-nose for $10-12 per 20. In fact, I took some of that and my 91/30 to my father-in-law in NC this fall so he can try to get a deer on his property. Likely shooting distance will be under 100 yards though. .303 British uses more-or-less the same diameter bullet, but less oomph and harder to get (plus, you'd have to hunt with an Enfield). 91/30 length rifles are good at absorbing recoil due to weight, but the smaller carbines really punish - and the 91/30 is not the rifle you want to hump through thick woods.

The other choice in .30 range, 8mm Mauser (or 8mm Rem Mag) uses .323 bullets that, when loaded to CIP standards, keep up with hot .30-06. But you are then restricted to Mausers, custom derivatives, a very few semi battle rifles (Hakim, FN49, etc) and the ammo is more pricey. Having said that, my M24/47 is my favorite rifle. If you want a well-built, decent precision, sturdy rifle it is hard to beat a Mauser. The Yugo M24/47s and M48s are still affordable. With a scout scope on mine, when I can keep recoil from cracking the scope mount, I see about 2" at 100'. Most of that is me - a better shooter could probably get to sub-1" with good ammo. For a hunting rifle, I'd go ahead and get a 'smith to mount a real scope mount on the receiver, rather than playing with the various dinky scout mounts.

When all the .30-06 Korean surplus hits (along with the Garands) the market / CMP I will be getting one of those myself.

Keeping all this in mind, I'd like to throw .30-30 into the fray. You can get them in bolt and lever guns (maybe some semiautos too), ammo is pretty cheap, and it's probably the most popular deer round ever.

 

[Parhams0508]

A guy on Armslist has a Spanish Mauser (FR-8) chambered in .308 listed for $250. Yall think that's a good deal?

 

[armaborealis]

A guy on Armslist has a Spanish Mauser (FR-8) chambered in .308 listed for $250. Yall think that's a good deal?

It is a fair price assuming decent quality. THe FR8s are converted from the "large ring"/3 ring mauser actions. They should be plenty strong to handle the .308 safely. The FR7s are converted from the weaker older "small ring" mausers and while probably safe they are a bit iffy.

I've been wanting a Spanish 308 rifle myself. I have an Ishapore enfield which actually shoots pretty well, but I haven't dared try anything stronger than the .308 "managed recoil" loads in it.

The question is what you want it for -- it still wouldn't be my first choice for a hunting rifle (hard to mount an optic, shorter sight radius due to irons forward of the bolt). For hunting you'll probably get as much or more mileage out of a basic Savage Axis. The quality ont he entry level sporter rifles has gotten pretty good in the last few years, a far cry from the cruddy Remmy 770s of old... A bolt gun is never my first choice for a defensive rifle, either. Still the FR8 is likely a decent choice in a versatile caliber.

 

[rotarymike]

Ooooh, I've always liked those. If it's in good shape, that's not a bad price.